We have no "it's a joke" icon. I will continue grading as I always have.

I am interested in hearing more comments about the Red Raven book and it's grade.

First off, this has always been one of my few Timely grails but I'd be hard pressed to even give it a GD-. Even if the guts were not worse than the cover I couldn't go GD+ 2.5 in good conscience. I can handle books that have enough general wear defects that drop them a lot but the visually appealing factor is a big one for me.

Being a nostalgic collector moreso than a HG collector I actually love date stamps, distributor marks, and neat OO names, as long as they are relatively unobtrusive. But the loss of artwork and water damage related defects would kill this one for me. That along with the comments about the smell because the first thing I do when I get a book is flip it open and get a good whiff for that back-in-time sensation. If I opened a book and got that trip-to-the-sewer sensation it'd be gone, at a loss, ASAP.

I haven't bought any slabbed books before but if I ever buy any keys or semi keys it's gonna be at the lower end of the scale. Seeing the liberal grade on this one will make me far more cautious if I ever do go that direction.

Sheesh, I walked right into that one, Steve!

That book is a friggin' health hazard.

Yukkk

Thanks Jeff. Besides that, a pressing would have yielded nothing to aid the elevation of the grade on a book like this, even if completely disassembled. Again, you had to have seen the entire book. The art on the inside pages was just as destroyed as it is on the front cover.

More opinions please.

personally, I have always been about "buy the book, not the label"...

a 4.0 is a stretch for me...I would say 2.5 to 3.0 for a really nice looking detached cover book is about right... here is a perfect example...

otherwise 8.0

it was....

So Rick, what grades would you assess to the Whiz #1 and the Red Raven #1?

I could totally agree with this. But the Supes, I dont think that was remotely close to being on point.

If I were offered this book to buy raw (for resale) I would grade it P/F or at best Fair-. That means I'm paying about 1/4 - 1/3 Good and selling at 1/2 to 2/3 Good. If the book is $5,000 in Good that means on average I'm paying around $1,500 and selling for $3,000. Key or not this book isn't worth anymore than that to me. I certainly am not going to tout it to one of my customers. It's a POS.

Nothing I see or read about this book tells me it's Good let alone Good+. This grade makes absolutely no sense to me and I'm sitting here shaking my head in amazement.

Welcome Gary!

I agree with you 100% on this book. But what do you think about the topic at hand. And more importantly the superman issue on page 1?

Detatched cover and not a HG copy being graded a 4.0? I think they missed the mark by far on that one.

My thoughts on the Superman aren't much different, Patrick. Grading has changed, but I don't understand why it changed. Someone posted (someplace) that he wished he still had all the VF's he once had back in the 80's and 90's. I agree with that 100%. VF was high grade back in the day. The condition of the spine/staples and page quality were the main factors in grading. Books that were detached from their staples were dismissed as beaters - and with good reason: it's a fundamental flaw that can't be dismissed.

Why have grading standards been lowered? So more books can be considered "high grade" and therefore more valuable? This makes no sense to me. I argued with Gary Carter and the rest of the Overstreet advisors back at the first grading meeting in Baltimore that VF should be 9.0. And the reason was simple. VF was a very sharp book. It was structurally sound, no significant defects, a great spine and it had great page quality (OW/W or better). Today it's a 9.0-9.4 and that's a shame.

And don't get me started on page quality. Cream pages with a 9.4 grade? Please, spare me.

I don't like what's happened to grading but I live with it and have adjusted my eye. But think about all those beautiful VF's of 10-20 years ago and now think of what a VF is today (let alone a VG with spine splits and detached cover).

Finally someone agrees with me. Thank you for your comments Gary. By the way, if my memory serves me correctly that POS went for $2000+ something on eBay about a year after I sold it for $415 on 8/11/05.

Again, couldn't agree more.

That person was me and my three largest regrets are selling 2 San Francisco Animal Antics (which would probably have graded 9.0 or better now and a Gorgeous copy of More Fun 54 which would probably have garnered a 9.2 today. Yeah the nest egg they would offer me would be nice but the fact that I owned three gorgeous books from the 40's like that is something one of my status doesn't get a chance to do now.

I miss my GD copy of Marvel Mystery #9 too.

What you may find interesting Marnin ( or disturbing ), is that I agreed with CGC giving the Red Raven a Good+ because over the past 8 years, my grading standard has virtually 100% become the same as theirs, and is modeled after theirs ( except the detached cover Supes 1 being graded at VG -- that's never happening with me ).

Since the moment CGC opened their doors, I have slabbed books, and I have always bought mostly raw, somewhat pricey issues. This means, since I buy, sell, and trade.....not just buy, that I have to be "on the same page" as my grading company, 'cause I can't go around buying a bunch of raw VF's that they think are just F\VF's ......would screw everything up for me as a seller / trader. So now ( and for the past 8 years ), when I assess the grade of a book ( the sellers grade means less than nothing to me unless its you or someone like you ), I have my own criteria to determine a grade, and also try to predict what CGC will think / grade the book at.........in the final analysis, the "what will CGC think" is the dominant factor in my technical grade determination. The economics of successful buying, selling, and trading as I do requires this mindset. So..........my brain is now a Hybrid .....1/4 me and 3/4 CGC (wonder what kinda mileage I'll get? )

This has worked out very well for me, and I have VERY few disapointments, as with every 100 books I send to CGC, I can predict the exact grade on at least 80 of them lets say, and the other 20 are typically within .05 of the original estimate. Funny thing is, now that this is how I grade books, it is hard for me to think back to my own grading standard before CGC was around, to tell you how I would grade that Red Raven. At CGC though ( and in my mind, which is now a CGC mind ), that book is exactly a Good+

Steve

I would be curious to know if the Superman #1 that received the 4.0 grade could have it's original cover attached using the original staples?
Would this make it restored?
Because nothing new is added would collectors still consider it untouched and original?
Also, would it technically be a married cover since it is the original cover?

I bet the 2 dealers that bought it from the OO's grandson never expected a Very Good designation. I would also gather that during negotiations neither party would have called it a Very Good and started the price point for the sale at that grade.

most likely there are major tears / some paper loss around the staple area of the cover, and it could not be re-attached without sealing the tears ( restoration ) or adding rice paper to reinforce the cover around the staples ( also resto ). No matter how the cover was re-attached, it would not be considered a married cover, since this is the original cover for this book. Once in a while, you can partially re-attach a cover by forcing some of the torn up cover area around the staple back under the staple...kinda like a hanging chad -- just enough so that CGC does not designate a detached cover, although it would be very loose - barely attached. How do I know this you ask?

That's a good point. There would certainly be loosening around the cover where the staples have exited making it virtually impossible to attach properly without getting some form of restoration, be it tear seals or what not.
I also have no problem with reattaching a cover with only the aid of the original staples and bet you've been able to accomplish it yourself with great success

Steve, not disturbing at all. We each choose our own path. I have continued selling books for 35 years now with virtually no returns. I grade by Overstreet Standards. Nuff' said:)

Here is how I would have approached this potential buy:

I would have showed the seller that the book was detached from the cover and along with its other flaws, it graded less than Good. I would have told him that it was a Fair copy and I would have priced it around 70% of Good. I would have offered 65% of that price. If I needed to spend more, I would have considered it, but no more than full Overstreet Fair.

I can't believe that the two gentlemen who purchased this book did anything much differently.

Then they hit the lottery when it came back a 4.0.

Yes, I have heard through the grapevine they were dumbfounded and shocked, besides hitting the lottery:)

I really like and appreciate your description Gary. I also feel that there is nothing underhanded involved from the exchange when the 2 dealers finalized everything. It does have the "hit the lottery" feel to for the grade received.

I do sometimes scratch my head when I see certain grades and we all know who is submitting them.... I think "unbiased" is not in the vocabulary when it comes to companies that grade comics. Way too cozy for my appreciation of the services offered.

1st of all.....hey Moondog
You were always a gentlemen on the CGC Forum ( where I no longer post ), so it is nice to see you here. This sale ( the Supes 1 4.0 ) should be interesting......if there is a buyer from within the hobby, the book shouldn't sell for anywhere near VG price. 'cause any seasoned collector will know that a detached cover book has a max grade of around Good - 1.8 ( that is my ongoing and unyielding grade for a detached cover book --- Good - 1.8 ). Unrestored Supes 1 are Scarce and in VERY high demand, so maybe it will/should sell for Good / Good+ price ( whatever that is ). If the high bidder is someone outside of the hobby that doesn't know any better....who knows
This book could set a record for a Supes 1 with a detached cover very easily...guess we will all know soon enough!
Steve

Would dumbfounded and shocked alter your ability to do the "dance of glee"

I'd be doing this. and list the CC.Net grade as excatly what the grade of the book really is, just as I'd do with the Red Raven #1.